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https://www.kaskus.co.id/thread/50c022bc6112437a5700003b/marriage-for--relationships
Love 
Marriage For Relationships
Here I want to share my article about marriage 'gan' emoticon-Ngakak

Every known human society has some form of marriage. Marriage is an institution in which interpersonal relationships (usually intimate and sexual) are acknowledged by the state, by religious authority, or both. It is often viewed as a contract. As a practically universal human idea, marriage is about regulating the reproduction of children, families, society.

People marry for many reasons, but usually one or more of the following: legal, social, emotional, and economic stability; the formation of a family unit; procreation and the education and nurturing of children; legitimizing sexual relations; public declaration of love.

Islam also commends marriage, with the age of marriage being whenever the individuals feel ready, financially and emotionally. From an Islamic (Shari'Ah) law perspective, the minimum requirements and responsibilities in a Muslim marriage are that the groom provide living expenses (housing, clothing, food, maintenance) to the bride, and in return, the bride must be a partner (sexually) to the husband. All other rights and responsibilities are to be decided between the husband and wife, and may even be included as stipulations in the marriage contract before the marriage actually takes place, so long as they do not go against the minimum requirements of the marriage.
emoticon-Kiss

How about you gan ?? emoticon-Sundul Gan (S)emoticon-Sundul Gan (S)
Well, I have no established income, have no residence, and the most important is I have no bride candidate. emoticon-Hammer
i do not believe in marriage, gan. i believe in romance. i know that the Eastern Culture emphasizes marriage as a way to create order in the society. however, when the moral level of the societies as a whole and as individual have dropped so low as this era... i simply started losing my faith in matrimonial relationships. for me, it is just a way to legalize a relationship. what can a piece of paper stating you're legally bonded with someone possibly do to ensure your hapiness?

so what is marriage? is it a way to ensure that the couple stays in love with each other? i don't buy that. actually the fact that you have to bind someone to be with you for the rest of your life proves you do not trust her/him to do so on their own. you have to legally force them to stay in love with you (or to pretend they are).

as for the other way around, the argument that marriage means you want to give everything you have for your partner? i don't understand why you have to get married to do so. if you want to give everything, just do so. no need for the whole legalizing itsy bitsy details.

and frankly, i think romance is better because it is human's nature and biggest problem that we can not stay faithful, no matter how many oaths we take. so seriously. instead of divorce, we can break up in the most simple way, and move on easily...

well. at least that's going to be my stance until someone convince me otherways :P
Quote:Original Posted By jonathan.vasad
i do not believe in marriage, gan. i believe in romance. i know that the Eastern Culture emphasizes marriage as a way to create order in the society. however, when the moral level of the societies as a whole and as individual have dropped so low as this era... i simply started losing my faith in matrimonial relationships. for me, it is just a way to legalize a relationship. what can a piece of paper stating you're legally bonded with someone possibly do to ensure your hapiness?

so what is marriage? is it a way to ensure that the couple stays in love with each other? i don't buy that. actually the fact that you have to bind someone to be with you for the rest of your life proves you do not trust her/him to do so on their own. you have to legally force them to stay in love with you (or to pretend they are).

as for the other way around, the argument that marriage means you want to give everything you have for your partner? i don't understand why you have to get married to do so. if you want to give everything, just do so. no need for the whole legalizing itsy bitsy details.

and frankly, i think romance is better because it is human's nature and biggest problem that we can not stay faithful, no matter how many oaths we take. so seriously. instead of divorce, we can break up in the most simple way, and move on easily...

well. at least that's going to be my stance until someone convince me otherways :P


Wow, you have an amazing view. emoticon-Belo
But, I'm sorry, I don't agree with you. I think marriage is still needed. I don't know why, but i feel that it is still needed for human.
I appreciate your opinion guys actually. That was amazing view from you.
I know that in this era and now even the Eastern People, as we know, a lot of younger then most of them gave a great contribution of sexual before marriage.

The fact, they just want to explore their curiousness about sex. It is also a big evidence and effect from a bad video they have watched. Before meet the requirements age for watched that video and then make them growth before their age.

That's why in this case, may this problem should affect your thought about marriage. This kind of actions wreck the sincerity in love of marriage. Do you think that?

Ah, that's our younger moral value are low now. They try and do what they look and see freely from adult video.
But again, don't you think we have sex only with our wife and give a birth a child and be parents for our child and make its growth until adult.

They call us as papa or mama. And we grow such a pure love of a family. That;s not great you think?????

Yah, but I think to have sex after marriage is a great deed and have children after that emoticon-Smilie
emoticon-Malu (S)

and so we discuss the "s" word...

since we're talking about sex and children, i shall give some of my point of view regarding the matter.

first, in my point of view, the biggest problem in a relationship... or, to be rather poetic, quoting an old saying: the biggest enemy of love is not jealousy. nor was it betrayal or conflict. the most vicious enemy of love can only be one thing: boredom.

I have personal experience regarding the value of this quote. i found it one of the spot-on quotes you feel in everyday life.

i'm ready to be called a heretic for saying this. but for me, a relationship as marriage would be disastrously boring. one partner for the rest of your life sounds good on theory. but without any room for small adventures, small romance and flirting here and there... it scares me.

and beside, my views on sex is rather unorthodox. i believe that all sex before marriage (at legal age, of course) are acceptable. the eastern view that you describe, for me, is a good guideline... but not a good rule. i believe sex is one of the way to understand your partner better, if ever you want to raise the relationship to the next level.

i believe that the eastern view also puts some kind of taboo in sex. that it is something sacred, and should be treated like one. but i think sex is simply a physical activity, not something that sacred. i think sex before marriage is a logical thing to do. that is a way to show your love, and gives you the information and experience you need further down the road.

at this point, a healthy minded person would (of course) brought the mighty argument about safe sex. i concede, a monogamous relationship is indeed the safest of all relationships. however that does not mean we should blasphemized every other kind of relationships. sex is safe. we have made steps to ensure the safety of sex. one of such way is by using condoms (do forgive me for speaking this too frankly). so there are no need for such views to state that free sex (or, in my term, free love) are plain wrong and disgusting.

dear TS, i believe i understand your point of view from your last post. you are very worried about the younger generation (perhaps, as myself) with our interest in sex. but actually, i believe the eastern culture is the source of the trouble. in a way, i do believe that our stance against the hedonism spreaded from the west are too harsh. we became such fundamentalist to defend our eastern culture that us younger generation start to question: "why was it our parents and the older generation so inadept to change? was it realy that bad?"

or in other word, in this particular discussion, they ask, "What is it so bad about sex that our parents make this such taboo? Oh well, screw them. we can find other source of information."

and thus, the porn.

i believe, sir, that perhaps our moral values are rather low. but the older generation plays some significant role in this fact being inadept to the change their children's mind are having!

and dear everyone... very sorry for the late reply. but please respond anyway. i am in need of someone to tell me that i believe the wrong thing... in a way i can respect and follow. thanks before.

sincerely

Vasad
You put on that case very good view and opinion for revealing the way how to say that the safe action for relationship and using condom before playing.

But guys, although in this country sex is unorthodox or prohibited for any reason, yet you can see that what is the consequence of this deeds?

Fisrt yah, I admit that in some of your points are right. Yet, we have to take a look of your view to criticize.
first, if you think that Quote: i believe sex is one of the way to understand your partner better, if ever you want to raise the relationship to the next level.
so, in this case, you agree and advocate that sex should be allowed. that's not the point, just the reason of apprehending love and having sex before marriage is a good one to aim only one of the way to understand your partner better. How about if the couple (not spouse) break or one of them decide to go away the relationship?

Second How about if someday you decide to marry a girl, and before wedding you know that she is not a virgin anymore, can you take that? she has given all of her love and virginity to her ex, could you admit anymore she still your heartthrob after know the real fact? I think you will refuse the wedding and find another girl.

Third And, if we talk about parents, Oke i confess I agree with you that our parents make this such taboo. but have you explore or trying to apprehend what they tend?
Which parents who willing and agreeing if their children play sex before marriage?? even they have love, we can't know how big and purity their love to us, to keep and give their love until adult, until married and difficult decision to decide to give us live with our spouse. (Please, don't say your disagreement)

Four We have religion right? I think we have already know that which religions suggest or legalize sex is a way to understand our heartthrob (not spouse) better???
I think none. (Please, don't say your disagreement)
I'm Moslem and I know that sex before marriage is categorized as number three of big sin in Islam, after apostate and rebellious children.

Last If you think that marriage is such disastrously boring relationship, you don't have enough knowledge about marriage. I suggest you to ask for further knowledge about love in marriage to adult or your guru.

After you have read what I'm talking about above, would you answer my question below with yes or no or your opinion

Do you think that playing sex is a good one to understand your heartthrob?
Do you think that using condom is a better way to have sex?
DO you think, if we use condom, then sex is allowed?
Have you take the advantage or benefit for such deed?
What happen if your heartthrob is having pregnant your baby, although you always use condom in playing sex?
Would you accuse your heartthrob has dishonest or admit your baby?

And
What is your opinion if you look or see two of dogs are having sex ?
Have you think animal should be married before sex or they just play sex whenever they want?

So, what is the differences between human and animal?

In conclusion, you, as a man, have to be a leader and you must take the responsibility in whatever you do. you must decide what is the best or good way or even worse for your future to be adult. And you will understand that in your age. that's all.

Untill a year ago, i never really had a dream to marry someone..I have seen in front of my eyes, how the marriage of my parents just broken in a blink of an eye just because the third person..i saw my mom cried, i feel ashame because of this problem...so it's so far from my mind..
I was just enjoying my life as a single and happy carreer woman..i had some interest with some guys..when i look around and there's a hot guy,then i'd be like a "'manhunter"..i mean,i've never been in love..it's something strange for me..so how could i dream of marrying someone?
because for me, i just want to marry someone that i love..

counter arguments and replies

good sir, thank you for making such an elegant and clear argument. i really appreciate your replies to my humble argument before. before i present my answers of your questions and yet again present my counter argument, i must first say that i shall not touch any of your own argument that touches religion. we may or may not share the same values in religion, but i shall appreciate your faith and will not pursue you in that ground.

yet to keep our discussion going fairly, in the future i ask you not to stand on religious-based argument, dear TS. if we are talking about marriage, i believe it is fair not to limit ourselves in religious values. in such discussion, it is best to keep our minds open to other grounds, such as cultural, lifestyle, logic, law, and psychological, don't you agree?

your first and second argument were pretty much the same. what would happen after a woman gave up her virginity? well, sir... since you were bringing a very practical question, i shall give you a very practical answer as well. in jabodetabek alone, 51% of teenager have already given up their virginity. this is the metropolitan area- which means it is an area with the highest education in Indonesia. if we compare this with the rural area, it gets worse. the rural area are rather famous with even lesser morale and more number of teenager given up their virginity before marriage.

with this number, it became clear that non-virgin woman are no longer such rare creature, and everyone has to learn to deal with it. this fact negates your first argument completely, because this data shows that non virgin will not be treated as freaks or (forgive me for the language) bimbos or sluts. it is a decline in society's morale... yet it is a fact we have to accept.

your second argument proves to be even more practical, engaging ourselves in a single case. i am no judge of you, sir. but if you do that, then you would be another bupati aceng, wouldn't you?
even if you are not, if you decided that you love her, would you be so cruel as to cancel the wedding? can't you accept that she had done that, she had her reason to do so? or can you even consider that as a mistake she made in the past, and that was stupid, but she loves you now?

you see, sir... i have seen enough in this world to know that there are always many sides of a case. you have to look at your case in open mind, observing it in many position. your position, for one. the girl's position is also a crucial part! if you don't see it the other way, then you are a narrow minded person... and that kind of person will not be able to be a good husband, i can assure you.

the keywords of my first counter argument are: understanding and forgiveness.

for the third and fourth argument, sir... you forbid me to answer. i have answers to those... but this is your thread, and i shall respect your rules.

in reply of your fifth argument, i must say... teachers can give you good theories about marriages. but these theories can be applied perfectly on perfect couple. sadly, we are mere humans. every humans have weaknesses. and not all these idealist theories can apply to human's vast weaknesses. please do understand. i have seen so many marriages, stranded for years in the sea of boredom. including one of my parents, sir.

moving on to your questions...

Do you think that playing sex is a good one to understand your heartthrob?
i think it is a way of understanding love. sex is a healthy activities performed by two adults... so yes. i do believe sex is a good way to understand my relationship. my compatibilities, and above all... me and my partner's capabilities of communicating. sex is far more than what you see on porn movies. in real life sex, there are other stuff to consider. the understanding of your partner's mood and will. the understanding of their physical needs. the communication between couple. knowing when to not have sex. variations in showing your love. serving your partner's needs.

so yes, sir. i believe so. and i believe i have made my point clear now.

Do you think that using condom is a better way to have sex?
in what way sir? perhaps so, in some cases. if you do not want to make babies, then yes. if you do want to make babies, then no. simple.

DO you think, if we use condom, then sex is allowed?
may i point out that there are no rules to forbid sexual relationship, sir? there are rules to prevents affairs, if one of the couple involved in a sexual relationship turns out to be married. there are other regulation that forbids prostitution. but regarding a healthy, sexual relation between two consenting adults. there are no rule nor regulation that could do so- doing so means robbing everyone of their privacy and human rights.

Have you take the advantage or benefit for such deed?

is this relevant in ANY way in our discussion?

What happen if your heartthrob is having pregnant your baby, although you always use condom in playing sex?
then i would sue the condom company for selling me a disfunctional tools.

Would you accuse your heartthrob has dishonest or admit your baby?
i shall admit the baby. i will do this in one of the two reason: first, honor. it is my duty as a man to be responsible for my actions. second, love. i will only do any kind of sexual relationship when emotions are involved. and that means i care deeply about my partner, and i shall do my best to be a good partner for her.

What is your opinion if you look or see two of dogs are having sex ?
Have you think animal should be married before sex or they just play sex whenever they want?
So, what is the differences between human and animal?

the difference, sir, is in the purpose of sex. in animals, the only purpose of sex is for breeding. for humans, we found another dimension in sex.

it is called love, and it is everyone's freedom to do so, married or not.

thank you for noticing this incredibly long argument.

sincerely

Vasad
Long Posts emoticon-Matabelo
Quote:Original Posted By 4b1n3l
Long Posts emoticon-Matabelo


it is. i am sorry for that, but it is neccessary to deliver my points
that's going so far, but it's we called as discussion emoticon-Smilie

I confess that you're a critical person. I like your arguments and how the way you think and expose.

You have convinced me and I really satisfied with your arguments. Even you can truly expose the points that was astonished me so much that "51% of teenager have already given up their virginity". I cannot predict how the way our culture to be. Just keep our culture or blended it together with western or others.

Oke, maybe in some cases you can discuss and counter my arguments so long and never ends, we know learning something is never end and just beginning. Eventhough it just a discussion, but if we don't have the point or guidance so where we are going to be.

I know if we talk about religion and God, then it will end. But it is the point, that to bring person in his/her awareness to be good or great is going back to our Majesty. That you can prettily counter my arguments. If you said we have to be open minded person, so we have to know that cultural, lifestyle, logic, law, and psychological are based on human.

But actually guys, you have answered well what you called love.
Quote:Would you accuse your heartthrob has dishonest or admit your baby?
i shall admit the baby. i will do this in one of the two reason: first, honor. it is my duty as a man to be responsible for my actions. second, love. i will only do any kind of sexual relationship when emotions are involved. and that means i care deeply about my partner, and i shall do my best to be a good partner for her.

"i care deeply about my partner, and i shall do my best to be a good partner for her" and you do admit the rule of relationship. "responsibility and careness". then "if it is no line of relationship of marriage so what should we called it?"

As you have told that we are a human, right?
then if we know our condition in this country is going so bad with 51% women aren't virgin, so what should you do to keep away or just let ignore it or protect the 49%?

"I wanna quote some sentences, There is no good or bad, but it will be good or great. So what will you choose to be a good or great person." That's the point to be a good or great person is just the choice not to be a bad person.

It's nice to keep posting and replying to you. emoticon-I Love Indonesia (S)
Thanks.
So long post, but it is nice discussion emoticon-Cek PM (S)
i'm flattered, sir. i sense that you're calling me a good partner. thank you for that. it has been a pleasure exchanging minds with one such as yourself. i hope you learn from my words as much as i learned from yours. let's hope we meet again in another discussion emoticon-Big Grin